Giorgio: So good morning. Welcome, everybody. This is a seminar of the ARBV and it's a seminar organized to in order to provide information on how to manage client budgets and project costs. And today, I'll just give a brief introduction to this webinar, and I will then pass over to our speaker, Emma Templeton. But before doing that, as always, I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional owners of the lands wherever the attendees are situated, and in particular the Wurundjeri People of the Kulin Nation, to whom I pay my respects to four to the elders past, present and emerging.
Giorgio: So, the purpose of today is to provide some support to architects and here in Victoria about the matters of cost management, which are very important because they, they often are at the at the source of disputes with clients. So, the purpose of today is simply to provide support and additional information to manage projects in the most efficient way and hopefully also provide information for clients who may be hiring architects and understand what architects can provide.
Giorgio: So, this is a webinar that will provide points available for professional development in line with the guidelines of the Architects Accreditation Council of Australia. It will be responding to national the national Standards of competency units of project initiation and conceptual design, as well as the subject detail, design and construction documentation. So, we hope that by the end of the seminar you will be able to appreciate the importance and understanding of clients brief and the repercussions of those matters on clients budgets.
Giorgio: Become more familiar with the tools that are available in order to control costs during the project, and also learn some about ways to avoid budget and cost discrepancies and how this also have to be managed in the context of documenting project variations. So, this overall will provide one formal CPD point and now, after this brief introduction, I'm very glad to present here to speak to that and Emma Templeton.
Giorgio: So over to you Emma.
Emma: Thank you, Giorgio.
Emma: Welcome everybody to this webinar today. We've had a lot of interest in this topic at the ARBV, which is not really surprising. It's managing a client's budget is one of the heaviest pressures we carry as an architect. It's a difficult class. It has a difficult task that has real consequences and it's been the cause of many sleepless nights for clients and architects alike.
Emma: To give you a little bit of background about me before we start, I'm currently the Victorian convener for the registration board here in Victoria, which means I assist the ARBV with the registration process. Reviewing Part 1 workbooks and the statement of Practical Experience would be the path to examination papers and work with examiners to undertake the Part three exams.
Emma: I also represent Victoria at a national meeting to review the national registration process, which is constantly being revised and improved. I also sometimes teach professional practice, most recently at University of Melbourne. However, most of my time is dedicated to my architectural practice called Templeton Architecture, where I'm the sole director. The practice is currently a team of eight people and we have a strong and passionate focus on residential architecture and in many ways this is actually the role that qualifies for this presentation.
Emma: Yes, the majority of the complaints that are made to the ARBV relating to cost management for us is to do with residential projects of a similar scale and nature to those that we deal with in my practice every day. And I'm not going to tell you that managing clients’ budgets is easy and there's no magic formula that I'm going to be able to share with you today.
Emma: What I can do is share with you what I've learned over 18 years in practice of residential architecture and perhaps through our mistakes and the resulting and ever evolving best practice that we have adopted, I can help you and your clients avoid as many sleepless nights as I've endured and enjoy the design journey with more certainty and as architects, we will operate under the national standards of competency which for which establish the standard for architectural education.
Emma: An assessment of professional competency prior to registration. As an architect in Australia under the current 2015 NSCA, managing a client's budget is covered within seven of the competencies. Under the new and improved 2021 NSCA, which is in the process of being implemented, managing client’s budget is the focus of four of the revised competencies. As a result, an architect’s failure to manage project costs in a client's budget may lead to findings by the Architects Tribunal of Unprofessional Conduct or careless or incompetent practice.
Emma: Depending on the circumstances, the tribunal's determination may lead to a caution, a reprimand, further education conditions or limitations on an architecture, registration penalty suspension or cancellation of registration. Okay, well, that all sounds kind of terrifying and litigious, but in my experience, it's actually the relationship with that client and the moral responsibility that is responsible for the weight and sleepless nights.
Emma: For good reason, particularly with residential projects where often, which are often the largest financial commitment our clients have. Sometimes your client will be paying off your decisions for 30 years, which is why every decision has gravity and why architects have to spend a lot of time worrying about other people's money. And I'm hoping through my lived experience, I might be able to save you and your clients some of this waste and concern.
Emma: What is an architect’s duty? Well, according to the AACA, at the point of registration and only once architects should be able to identify, analyze and evaluate client project requirements and objectives using quantitative and qualitative methods and where required by the terms of engagement to assist cost estimate in determining project feasibility and viability. I think that's really important. We'll come back to that feasibility and viability point in a bid to assess project budgets and time frames against project requirements and objectives, relevant legislation, statutory planning requirements, building codes and standards, and then apply project budgets or work with a quantity surveyor to establish project budgets based on understanding of cost planning, value management and factors influencing project
Emma: costs relevant to the project type and scale and the minimum standard expected. First meeting costs by an architect is that of a reasonable architect. Architects are not required to have the expectation of the quantity surveyor or specialist architect in the area of costs. Many of you, if not all of you, will know how difficult these tasks can be under normal construction circumstances.
Emma: For those of you who've been working or practicing over the past number of years, you'll understand the increased challenges during the during and post-pandemic with substantial cost increases, never ending supply chain issues. And now the added inflation factor. Just when you think it's impossible, remind yourself that you don't have to control it. Just when you think it's impossible.
Emma: Remind yourself that you don't have to control costs. You have to manage costs. And this allows for reasonable cost adjustments. This requires good communication. The most important concept to begin with is that managing costs is not something you do once during a project. It is many little steps of communication throughout the process that provide the client with understanding and comfort as they make decisions throughout the journey.
Emma: Like so many parts of our varying occupation, communication is paramount. And traditionally architects have not been good at talking about money. It's something we all have to focus on doing better and okay. But the initial areas of confusion for a client is the difference between the cost of works and the total project cost. It's a lack of understanding that the client may not understand the cost of work's work, which is the construction cost.
Emma: Thus, the total project cost. This should be realized at the earliest possible moment when you meet with the client to discuss the budget. You should ensure they understand the difference between the total project cost, which is the amount the client is responsible for and the cost of works, which is the cost of the construction of the project. The cost of works is the amount.
Emma: Also, that our phase often established on straight through, despite the cost of works or total construction, is exclusive of GST and is defined by the final cost of all works designed for the spot and scheduled by the architect, including all work designed specify and or scheduled by a specialist consultant to coordinate by the architect, including the final adjusted contract price, excluding GST in accordance with any building contract.
Emma: The equivalent final cost, excluding GST of any of the work or items supplied to the building contracted by the client as if provided by the building contractor under the building contract. Plus, the final cost excluding GST. Any part of the project provided under the contract other than the building contract.
Emma: So, the total project cost. So, the total project cost is inclusive of GST and is defined as the cost of works plus all of the client costs associated with the project, including but not necessarily limited to removal and relocation costs, design and construction contingencies and escalation costs. Architectural consultants and other professional face authority fees and charges and all legal fees.
Emma: So, the total project cost, including our base consultants, authorities and other exclusions such as landscaping or soft furnishings, makes up a total project cost. In our studio, we make this clear from the initial information sheet that is sent to the client prior to the proposal being considered. This has been reiterated in the paper. So, once we get to this point.
Emma: It provides clarity to both parties and avoids surprises.
Emma: Do you know your client's budget? So, while you'll read that it is and it is the client's responsibility to set a budget for their project, it's important to remember that not all clients will have been involved in the construction project or will work for the architect before. This means they may not quite understand what is involved in the process.
Emma: The importance of having a clear and realistic budget. Sometimes you might sense that the client is reluctant to share their budget honestly with you. This could be for a number of reasons, including the fact that our fees are often tied to this figure and perhaps in the commercial world. Establishing a budget is easier than in the residential sector.
Emma: But in my experience, the client usually arrives with a dream and the budget, and sometimes without a budget or with or without a realistic budget. And there is no budget. Never did the dream and the budget perfectly aligned. Despite wanting to achieve these goals, and particularly as young architects, we set out with our first project wanting to say yes.
Emma: It's really important to remember that it's not the architect's job or role to squeeze the scope desired by the client into an unrealistic budget. It's actually our responsibility to inform the client the discrepancy so that they can make informed decisions. But how do we do this?
Emma: This slide that's up here at the moment. It's just an example slide. But it's one of the things we do in our initial feasibility stage, which we stop now on every project. We do a concept master planning exercise and we run our unit rates against that outcome and we assess that we gain those unit rights generally from our past experience or past projects and relatively recent projects and apply that to our to the new concept.
Emma: And you'll see here that we've got different floor areas for different areas, whether it's a deck or a pool or whether it's a first.
Emma: Floor or a renovation, the rate will vary. We also then have an allowance in this project, an exclusion for landscaping external works. We have a design contingency built in and then you'll notice under that total construction cost, then we add additional the but we'll have a consultant phase, the architectural phase, the contingencies and project cost down the bottom. And often this is a difficult process, but it allows us to make the adjustments really early on in the process before we get to a point where the client has already committed to a project that they're uncomfortable with paying.
Emma: And that the architect is responsible for designing and delivering a project within the constraints of a budget. Agreed with the client. So at the end of this process, we end up with a scope and a budget that we've agreed that we can achieve from the very beginning of your interactions with the client, you should ask questions to find out what the client wants and more importantly, what the client is willing to pay.
Emma: There should be no ambiguity when it comes to a client budget. It may take a few steps to get to this point. Architect suggests the following tips on trying to establish a client's budget. I said do not accept a range, but establish an actual number. Be clear whether the budget includes GST as part of the plan. Architect agreement.
Emma: Provide clear written advice to your client about the link between the cost, the cost of works and the architectural fee calculations. If this is how you set up your face, this should be clear from the very first stages of your engagement and is one of the smaller segments of the complaints that are received. Is that clarity between the state and the architectural, the fee and the construction cost.
Emma: In our studio we attempt to align the dream and the budget during the initial feasibility stage, and it's a lovely journey full of possibilities as the client creates a wish list for their project. It's also a wonderful way to face the cost realities of the project. We offer the client a fixed fee for this feasibility study, which we ultimately deduct from our percentage based pay if the project proceeds.
Emma: The aim of the feasibility is to test the site constraints against the scope and estimated construction costs. Sometimes my studio accuses me of breaking dreams rather than creating them at the end of this stage. However, this is a learned skill that allows both parties to understand the parameters sometimes for disappointment, and everyone can sleep at night. And we move forward in one way or another.
Emma: This is part of.
Emma: Your professional development.
Emma: Point. So true or false, an actual client budget is better than a budget range.
Emma: Written advice and the eye of a bay recommends that architects, whenever they can propose to the clients and write that they have engaged a quantity surveyor or cost.
Emma: Consultant or encouraging them. This can be set out in your client Architect agreement.
Emma: MSA disclosure. This is particularly important given that current inflation free market. Hopefully clients will appreciate the value for money and having a third party in the process who can give independent expert advice and keep the project in check as the design develops. You or your clients might think that a quantity surveyor only required the large scale projects. This is not true.
Emma: The quantity surveyor or cost consultant is invaluable to any project scale and complexity. As I've previously mentioned, the eye of a bay receives a number of complaints every year relating to small domestic renovations that have experienced significant cost issues. The true truth is that there's an inverse correlation between project size and the proportion risk, meaning that small projects and small budgets are often more difficult to manage to manage than larger projects.
Emma: Which is unfortunate, given that these are the project we often secure when we're the least experienced qualifying project costs. We talked a little bit about this in the feasibility study. There's many ways in which you can do this, but it's important to seek instruction from a client as to the level of accuracy they require and with the costing and any fact and what they're prepared to incur.
Emma: It two basic ways that costs can be done at a conceptual stage once the cost per unit, which is a square meter, right. Like I had previously shown you on the possibility study. This is the method of multiplying the area by unit cost, right? This method is used to provide basic, mostly preliminary estimates. You can obtain cost rates from previous projects, ideally valuable guides which are published by countries, surveyors and estimating organizations.
Emma: We fund with our projects that clients come for a specific quality and esthetic, and in order to achieve that, the rates that we've got in-house and have established are the most accurate way of predicting the cost of the project at an early stage. There's also element of rights which provide a more accurate estimation. This method requires that there is a vast building design.
Emma: Finishes have been identified and project specifications developed so that the quality of the project outcomes can be identified. While this method is more accurate, it does record by their attention to detail and is a method used by quantity surveyors. An estimate is.
Emma: What we tend to do as one of our large second steps of managing the cost is after we have agreed on that feasibility cost. At present we've moved forward to the next stage. We go through our sketch design stage. But before we get through design development and therefore into before outcome planning is submitted to council.
Emma: Develop an application planning where you we would engage of quantity surveyor at that stage to undertake an elemental rights assessment so that we can just track that we are still on the same trajectories before we get a permit for something that.
Emma: May.
Emma: Not be what the client wants to spend.
Emma: True or false? The cost per unit area method is more accurate than the elemental right? Depending on the size, the project size, the client budget, and the level of accuracy required by your client in relation to the cost of works. It may be appropriate to seek early contractor involvement.
Emma: Lots of projects, lots of different experience with this, but it can be helpful in managing clients expectations. Although it does come without the risks as managing a builder. The builder is not independent in the same way as the quantity surveyor is. So keep that in mind because the information is quite useful at the end. It may be that having an independent assessment might be even more relevant.
Emma: The question for you. True or false? A quantity surveyor should only be used for high end complex projects and.
Emma: Just matters to go through.
Emma: Everything. Just on that last point, I'll just cover on that in this area.
Emma: Here. Many of you may have already encountered the queries regarding what you'll see is linked to the construction cost. No incentive to keep the costs down, I'll say, and all sorts of other things. But let's talk about and I'll talk to the side for a moment. Discussions around budgets can be more complicated when tied to our place structure.
Emma: Typically, architects charge fees in one of the polling ways a lump sum based on a fixed scope of works, a fixed fee, a percentage based on the cost of work is variable with changes to the maximum guaranteed price, which is not only right with the defined cap, it's method will raise different challenges in terms of managing the client's budget and the architect's cash to, as you would understand, a client will not understand from the outset what your lump sum figure will be and can account for that percentage.
Emma: But it does leave you at some risk of some of the extraordinary things that we've experienced over the last couple of years in terms of project timelines being extended, cost of materials, all of.
Emma: Those things.
Emma: And percentage based on the cost of works is variable. And it's what we mostly implement analysis which has assisted us over the last period in managing some of the escalation costs.
Emma: That have happened.
Emma: And it's relatively easy to manage from a budget point of view for the client hourly rates variable that are difficult for the client to manage, that difficult thing to manage and is, as I see it, not a huge win on an hourly rate. We tend to use hourly.
Emma: Rates.
Emma: Only for additional work or at the end of the stage when something like a town planning vacant case might come up and then there's maximum price guaranteed, which clearly also defines a cap for the client, allowing them to manage the cost. So the questions come from this in terms of managing a client's cost, the hourly rate or percentage based models, both have some variability in them.
Emma: So when we have client psychiatry and you're encountering questions along the line, there's no incentive for you to keep the costs down. If you've got a percentage based fee. And we need to get really good at communicating why a percentage base fee is relevant to our industry. And as she would all know, documenting a higher material or seeking a higher level of finish takes more time.
Emma: But even more importantly, the higher the costs, the greater risk we also carry. And this is often not a significant factor when the client's looking at it, they don't understand the risk involved. Can architects need to get better at articulating time per task and risks to our clients?
Emma: Okay.
Emma: And you'll also hear lots of talk about contingency sounds that can assist you to manage a project budget. You would have seen in my feasibility at the beginning that we would always have a design contingency and a construction contingency built in at the early stages. It's an amount of money which is included into total project cost and it allows for unforeseen matters or incidental items that can only become apparent during construction.
Emma: And we're not sustainable at the planning stage. While the inclusion of a contingency sum in best in the budget.
Emma: Or.
Emma: Build contract is not mandatory, it can be included and definitely should be included in the client's understanding of the total project cost. Some people would have it in the build cost. I feel that showing the builder a bucket of money is not necessarily helpful to your job as managing or the clients best interests in managing a budget during construction.
Emma: I'll show you a little thesis.
Emma: Some performance where this is a contingency sums can be included in the build contract or exist separately to which, if to be included in the contract, a suitable specification clause must be included. Something like this clause which is available on practice notes for contingency sums. So this is just another place that you can find tools to assist you when you're managing a client's budget.
Emma: And another tricky area of managing your budget is a scope variation. And I haven't been involved in many projects that don't have some kind of scope variations and not they're not the exception to the whole thing more the role. So given the nature of architectural design, changes are likely to occur as you work with your client to design their project variations or changes to the extent or type of service that leads to a change in the cost of the service or program for its delivery.
Emma: So they may from a number of different sources, it might be a client construction, it may be an authority change client experience from a place like in a process with an authority, changed flood overlays recently and possibly some of you have had similar things in recent times. It could be a third party change, which may be counsel and or design change that's driven by either the client or the architect.
Emma: These things can be less problematic when the fee is based on a percentage and tied in to the adjustment. But it's imperative to have this discussion if you are working on a fixed price. And this again is a tool that you might use as a base or just a reference from Acumen on how to communicate a scope and service variation with your clients.
Emma: So even just these identifiers identifying the variation, summarizing the reason for providing the fee, costing or base the future fee costings and advise of any programming implications and based on potential budget implications, and then record the client's.
Emma: Approval.
Emma: You might have different ways of managing that depending on the scale size and how your approach to your client is. But these are the things that we need to identify in the process.
Emma: Okay.
Emma: True or false? During design development, any variation should be put in writing to the client and indicate how it will affect the costing. So just talking about the I have a base probably encourages you to think about ways in which your practice could implement a process for documenting variations and providing clients with written correspondence on these matters. Doing so can assist you in avoiding or being prepared for any disputes that arise with clients over costs.
Emma: Okay.
Emma: Construction variations. A construction variation is a change to the scope originally outlined in the contract, the variation may be related to a late client request or an architect instigated design modification. The variation may have a cost and time implication that requires to be tracked carefully by the architect in their role as superintendent. The variation may also impact the client architect agreement regarding to the architectural, saying, all of which is to be managed, assessed and documented by the architect.
Emma: Okay.
Emma: And here I’ve got some sort of final tease, I guess, in managing client expectations. And I just encourage you to think about these in relation to your own practice and think about adopting some of the some of the ideas here today into your own processes. So adopting a comprehensive client architect agreement that contains the detailed scope of services and how parties will manage variations obtaining cost estimates at the end of each stage of service, which I would strongly suggest.
Emma: We often are in such a rush and the clients have such time pressures on us that we forget to take this step. But it's actually an incredibly important step to take at the end of each stage before things get to what of the trajectory ensure you obtain the client's approval of the drawings and estimates before proceeding to the next stage.
Emma: This should be done in writing. Don't avoid difficult discussions, clear and honest verbal communication can often resolve most issues, and then that can be followed up with written correspondence. Provide clients with written correspondence that summarizes any verbal conversations about costs I find with my clients because my clients are residential clients that the verbal conversation is best first, rather than just receiving a written correspondence which has a full melody.
Emma: That is not the kind of journey my clients are looking for. But then I do follow up with a confirmation or summary. That discussion provide updated architectural fee estimates when variations caused an increase in the cost and be clear with your client about the fee structure and relevant stage of works. The fixed stage is completed and when an hourly rate stop is commenced again, often due to the time pressure we feel ourselves and we can sometimes forget to communicate that we feel we've completed the scope of works contained in a stage and then we are going on to an area which is an hourly rate to.
Emma: Which.
Emma: Travel office. The most obvious example is after a town planning proposal has been submitted, an application has been submitted, but then we do our requests for information for VCAT hearings or any on an hourly rate that needs to be communicated clearly. All of that will be surprised.
Emma: Once.
Emma: And then. Sad note to end on. But sometimes you do need to be the dream breaker because a lot of people don't know the costs involved with creating bedrooms and we have an obligation to pay to demonstrate those to them. If a variation from an authority changes, can architects change a variation fee? Yes, well, depending on your fee agreement.
Emma: But if your scope is well outlined and something changes outside of your scope of works, that requires you to do additional work and you should be able to charge a fee. This is incredibly reliant on.
Emma: How.
Emma: Detailed your fee agreement with your client is.
Emma: To this.
Emma: Yes, I think I'll be available to questions. I think the whole presentations available online at the I am, they actually next couple of days the clients.
Emma: That.
Emma: Pay us, there are some clients who don't believe in latent conditions or difficulties that may in in construction. How do you manage things should any architectural agreement be entered with such clients?
Emma: These are these tricky when it comes to unreasonable request from a client. If you can identify them early, I would say.
Emma: I wouldn't be entering into an agreement with somebody that doesn't believe a latent condition can exist. I'm too often the problem is that you won't understand that difficulty until further on the project. And communication is still key for this type.
Emma: Of issue. And I think with a latent condition you should be able to demonstrate it in a way that's very clear because lighting conditions are at the client's risk, not at the builders or the architects. Good luck guys, for inside we've engaged a QS and cost estimated before, but they have overpriced the projects compared to what the build is tender and built the project for that a little bit.
Emma: It's from time to time and the more information we give them, the more accurate the project is. I don't know. Also often at design development, so we would.
Emma: Have what you might call 70% complete.
Emma: I would try another QS for a start. I would also just have a look at what information you're giving them and what they are making and maybe you can also try some doing that sort of the feasibility study yourself.
Emma: Try and cross-check when a QS is so far off that it's making it uncomfortable for you to.
Emma: Build that.
Emma: It's not a problem. I've had recently. Should the construction contingency ever be used to cover cost of variation during construction? It can be even a construction contingency if it's built into the contract. Is that fair fiscally to cover the first any variation that might arise until that contingency is used? That is why I'm probably reluctant to build them into the contract in my case or in our case in the office, because it's sortof,
Emma: it's very transparent to the builders to say there's also this much money.
Emma: You can use.
Emma: So I think it's really important to make sure that the client understands that, that that contingency needs to be there and to be budgeted for.
Emma: But I.
Emma: I would generally not put that into the contract and then that that contingency should be there to cover those variations when they arise. There is always a variation on projects and clients need to accept that from the outset.
Emma: You know.
Emma: Angus asks about how do you go with clients, including contingencies in their budget when getting bank loans? Banks like fixed some contracts. It's incredibly.
Emma: Difficult.
Emma: The banks are getting harder to manage. Even with the AIB contracts I don't even.
Emma: Some of them consider it to be a fixed contract due to the number of provisional sums. You might be able to include a prime cost items. And so it is incredibly difficult to do that. I would suggest that your clients probably are not loaning 100% of the money, so that contingency should be worked into their project cost that they.
Emma: Can afford to or.
Emma: Willing to spend. I'd like to use the word afford because really every project is only what the client willing to invest in it. So I think that's something that the client needs to manage. How do you help clients appreciate certain design details I conceived? Flush can be significantly more expensive and impact.
Emma: Budgets gets from the show. Thank you, Michelle. Hopefully when clients come to you, they come to you for a design response. And I think with things like know what in particular you're talking about, it's a flush skirting or something like that. We do just find that explaining the process of how you construct something is incredibly compelling to a client.
Emma: To understand that a plant on skirting is the process of that. This the process of doing a flash skirting actually step them through it and then they have to make their own decision. Unfortunately, if it's not in their wish list and there are constraints, then they can decide to go without it. But if you're good communicating and able to articulate what's important to the design, and you can also explain the reason for the cost.
Emma: Difference, which is the construction process itself, I think you'll mostly be able to convince clients. So it's important.
Emma: To say who wrote this question, but I'll read it up. We are finding on a number of jobs there is a large difference between the QS and the data between the QS at data stage to the final fixed price at building stage.
Emma: And the build back.
Emma: Due to the changes due to the changes in the market materials. We now recommend working with the builder early stages of design to understand cost. And I think during the pandemic we have done that a lot more than we did prior to the pandemic for two reasons really for that early contractor involvement. And they have been passed not just through the necessity.
Emma: Contractors have been faster to adjust to the to the changing conditions.
Emma: At the coalface of it, but also because builders have been harder to lock in from a program point of view as well. I have been found from day, day to tendering price that the process changed dramatically.
Emma: Or.
Emma: It's been wood intensive. But I think if you can and if you if you've got a client that's willing not to go out to market and they've got a builder in mind, then you have that opportunity to talk to somebody that's really contractor involvement. It's just another thing to manage in terms of that market price evaluation and whether a client is comfortable.
Emma: I find that actually having particularly if we're going to one specific builder like a nominated builder that may have had early contractor involvement that I used the quantity surveyors breakdown as a way to check that price because I don't have a tender market price to use. So I still find it incredibly.
Emma: Useful, just like.
Emma: We have in our fee agreement. That agreement that stages overlap, for example, develop, develop construction details that may inform the design. To date we found this projects and cash flow.
Emma: Yeah.
Emma: This goes against the advice to get written approval to proceed to the next stage. I'd be interested in working.
Emma: Okay.
Emma: And we do have projects that do that also. Typically it might be something like you discuss where we're starting to document something for construction, but we're still finishing interiors or joinery concepts. I think as long as it's clearly articulated with the client, it won't mesh out. So, you know, percent we would charge a percentage of design development and percentage of the construction price.
Emma: It's probably the advice is really more targeted at some areas of hourly rates.
Emma: Or.
Emma: Where you've got a limited number of presentations in your in your pay proposal. And when that gets that expires and it rolls on to.
Emma: Another form of fee structure, that's when I think it's really crucial to inform the client.
Emma: Any tips to very small projects under 1 million with the rate.
Emma: Of escalation increasingly increasing rapidly, making some seemingly non-Viable.
Emma: That was from Erin. It is really, really difficult.
Emma: To work on projects in those smaller brackets right at this moment in time. And I think the actually articulating that something's not viable is part of our job.
Emma: So the problem that we're facing at the moment and the challenge for the profession is that some things that looked viable 2 to 3 years ago.
Emma: Are not viable now with the same Scope and.
Emma: The only way you could have managed that is to update it regularly. But as you say, this is what I was talking about, the relationship between small projects and small budgets and, the risk involved, because there's just less that you can take out, there's less that you can actually do to try and manage.
Emma: It's the only way to do it is constant conversations with your client. And if you do know that it's undeniable, you need to be very clear about that with your client. It will make your life much easier.
Emma: Amy How accurate do you find QS estimates to based on results from projects with found their way out, especially when light.
Emma: Work to an existing house which difficult to scope remote.
Emma: And I'm not sure whether Amy is funding them high or low from her message. I'm typically I think again, it probably comes down to what stage.
Emma: You're getting the QS involved, but I find that the design development stage that they're relatively accurate within sort of 10%. As I said I don't.
Emma: Maybe you should just have a look carefully or speak to Public Services or us about what other information you provide to them that would make it more accurate.
Emma: Because that shouldn't they should be helping you, not making your job more difficult.
Emma: Underestimating the cost. Okay. And sometimes Shelley's got back to us, so. Right. And said that it was worse. I think we had one.
Emma: Before that said it was well over.
Emma: You will all, with experience, be able to recognize some of this through your own historical knowledge and historical projects. Under is clearly more concerning and more terrifying for you. As the architect, I would suspect that. I mean, one of the tricky things when you can't be on site when they don't go to site is the access and how that affects costing. And we would provide a fair bit of information about that. Now, concerns if you know, you've got to carry windows through the front door because there's no other way in acoustics to know that.
Emma: So I think when you're providing drawings, you the more information you can provide about the site detail as well as some of those will also be very happy to go to site. If you're concerned about a project, then you need to check in a kiosk. They give you a lot of options on what they will cost. So at different ways they'll cost to what level they'll cost and whether they'll do site visits.
Emma: If you think of projects going to be affected by that, it might be.
Emma: Worth I've got.
Emma: Sorry, last question. Apparently, if a client refuses to appoint a QS, would you commission one in-house at your own cost? It's a good question, Eliot. When I first started out, it was I found it harder to get clients. Maybe I've just got better at communicating, but I find it harder to get clients.
Emma: That wanted to.
Emma: Use a quantity surveyor. So we've built a little bit into one of our stages the design development stage. In order for us to do that in-house. Until we don't do that anymore, because we have enough historical knowledge to know how that will go. But if you're starting out with a new practice and you are concerned about it.
Emma: The cost of a quantity surveyor.
Emma: Even at that design development stage, just to know that you're on track and so that you've got something to monitor your decisions about and your clients concern to monitoring decisions about, then that would be that would be something that I would consider having as part of your covering. Not quite. You're not paying for it for the client. You're absorbing it so that so that you can give them the best advice.
Emma: Unfortunately, we're out of time. Thank you. And what I can do after this is I can answer some of your questions and we can send them out to you because I think we'll have a list of those. And thanks, everyone, for attending. I hope it's been helpful in some way. I understand all the challenges you're facing and it's probably reflected in the number of people that enrolled in today.
Emma: It's worth it. So keep working with them and I hope that you'll join me. I know they have got a few more seminars set up for next year, so we'll look forward to seeing you.
Emma: Thanks.
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